“The Water Cooler”: Let’s talk about male circumcision

I worked with someone that got circumcised at 29 for religious reasons. He’s now 43 and He will tell you there’s no difference to Him when knocking boots.
I don’t think we should make laws banning the practice.

I think you should look into Female Circumcision, I think we need to bring “Democracy” to those Backwards 15th century countries that are doing such a horrible thing. I don’t want hear the “it’s their religious or cultural way” excuse. It’s barbaric, look it up.

It’s a personal choice, or a parent’s choice as babies can’t really make the call. The idea of ANY government could ban it is ridiculous. It’s not their place.
To that I say: Ban THIS -> *points to circumcised member*

Even when government action is to ban government action, people get upset about government acting… Ugh.

Thanks for the tip! (groan)

Just like the gub’ment to assume that is theirs to control too.

They have no business, period. Hands off!

This MGMBill.org group that initiated the bill sounds about as useless as Art Mijares, the guy who wants to change the name of Mt. Diablo. Everything should be based upon their religious beliefs — they think.

Bad advertising …

Lobaw,
Never said it was perfectly acceptable, did I?

Have you researched female circumcision or are you just comparing it to male circumcision which is usually done to a baby.

Bob Loblaw brings up a good point. If one is to be considered barbaric then the other should be as well.
My opinion is that it is a personal choice that should be left up to the individuals, and since parents have to make legal choices for their children until they are adults, it is up to te parents.
Bob, my understanding (admittedly limited) is that male circumcision originated with religious purposes geared toward cleanliness. Female circumcision is practiced by cultures for the sole purpose of limiting a female’s sexual pleasure. One reasoning seems dubious at best, the other does sound barbaric to me. Just my opinion.

@ Bob Loblaw

Have you even read the ways in which many countries handle female circumcision? Yes, there are doctors that do it properly with anesthesia and clean medical facilities, but the majority of women and girls in poor countries are subjected to this without anesthesia, without a proper doctor, without proper instruments, and by being held down against their will in a back alley or in the common room of a house. I’d like for you to think about your wife, daughter or mother being subjected to that kind of treatment and then tell me there’s no big deal.

The government needs to stay out of parenting! They can’t even handle their own business that we elect them to do for gosh sakes! I think it’s an individual choice…..just look where we’re at now with some of their ridiculous laws, pfft.

Oh and while I’m at it, male circumcision only requires removal of the foreskin. With many female circumcisions, ALL of the external tissues/parts are removed which is vastly different. It’d be akin to removing your entire penis (and in case you didn’t know, in embryonic development, the same protuberance that make up the penis in a male, also makes up the same ones of the clitoris in women).

Mr. Mayor, if you feel okay posting this, link leave it in otherwise you can edit it out if you’d like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

I find interesting that most of these comments say it’s a “personal choice” yet the baby who is undergoing this procedure has no choice!

Circumcision should be left up to the individual to decide…not the government, or the parents.

I think it’s a horrible practice to mutilate an infant’s body like that. In a perfect world, no one would do it. But it’s a strongly ingrained tradition in parts of our society and in some religious beliefs. It doesn’t harm society as a whole, so it’s better if the government stays out of it and lets families make up their own minds. I feel the same way about abortion. I may not like it, but the government should stay out of it and let people make up their own minds.

Interesting that a lot of the folks that want to stop circumcision are completely fine with abortion. Personally, I think circumcision should be the least of people’s worries…

Can I have a smoke afterwards?

Seriously, this is a complete waste governments time to even be discussing wether or not to be involved it this sensitive area (ok my one and only pun). to circumcise or not is truely a non-issue and should be left up to the parents to decide. There are SO many other issues to deal with!

The government shouldn’t ban it… we should just ridicule and badger the people who think circumcision is a good idea into changing their minds.

Kind of like we did for smoking.

If you don’t circumcise the males they have the potential to develope the same diseases and rotten odors as females.

As far as I know, the military still requires it to be done. My cousin joined the Navy in 1995 and was required to have it done before enlisting.

@for those that believe. A personal choice… but who’s choice though? It doesn’t seem to me a days old infant has much of a choice and it is HIS body is it not? I get the religious reasons and there is no way to get around that unless you happen to be one VERY progressive and willing to go against the “tradition” which by the way, there are many! There are even jewish groups starting to form against it. So personal choice, sure, but it should be that boy’s choice. Period.

leave baby boys alone, let them keep their foreskins.

There is no requirement for circumcision to enter the military. This is a fact.

However, doctors in the military get paid money for circumcision and other medical procedures that they get soldiers to undergo. So doctor’s have an incentive to perform as many surgeries as they can even if the surgery is not needed.

Circumcision is not the same for each person.

From my own personal experience, circumcision did not make it feel better. The doctor cut too much skin off. It is a very imprecise procedure and it really depends on how much the doctor cuts off. It is hard to estimate how much to cut.

The doctor cut too much skin off. It was way too tight and it is extremely painful when stretched. I absolutely hate it. I regret having it done. After circumcision, the skin on the organ becomes extremely dry and is prone to severe irritation. Also, they supposedly say circumcision makes you last longer in sexual relations. This is not correct. In fact, after circumcision, there is so much irritation of the skin from the missing foreskin that you go off sooner.

The foreskin is a pleasurable sheath of skin that has a nice gliding sensation. It keeps the organ lubricated and protected. The skin is soft and moisturized. Once the foreskin is chopped off, the skin becomes really dry and can be painful to touch when dry.

Hygiene is not a problem with uncut men. It is very easy to clean. It is not talked about, but women actually have more smegma and bacterial build up than men if women don’t wash themselves.

I hate the effect of circumcision. If you were circumcised as a baby, you don’t know what you are missing. I don’t believe people should live in ignorance. I don’t believe we should go on being a society that says sexual pleasure does not need to be as good as it can get. I don’t support, “As long as it is kind of good feeling, it is enough. Settle for ho-hum pleasure. Who cares about full sensation and feeling.”

Today only about 20 percent of newborn baby boys in Western States such as California are cut. That is about 80 percent who are naturally intact.

Other countries in the world do not circumcise. Europe does not circumcise: England and the rest of the UK, France(and they have the most sex in the world), Italy, etc. China, Japan, Russia, South America, Central America, Mexico. Canada, Australia, New Zealand once performed a small percentage of circumcisions even 30 years ago. Circumcision is very rare there now.

Most countries that circumcise are Muslim countries. Most of the circumcised men in the world are Muslim. A smaller number are Jews. Circumcision is mostly found in Muslim countries for men and women. Many Muslim men insist that their women have their clitorises removed.

In Indonesia, boys and girls are circumcised. Young girls have the corresponding part of their anatomy removed. The hood around the clitoris is cut off. This is equivalent to the foreskin on the male. The women in that country believe it makes girls more beautiful and that men prefer their clitoral hoods to be removed. The clitoris is still kept. The hood around it is chopped off. If you have part of the clitoris still intact, women can still orgasm.

Bob Loblaw does not believe in circumcision, therefore, no one for any reason should be circumcised. It is simply wrong for one person or group to make decisions such as this for everyone, but that is the way of the left.

It is none of lefts business if a parent chooses to circumcise their child for whatever reason. What is good for the left is never what is good for the rest of the people.

This is another matter of personal choice. It is none of your business. There is a limit of what people will tolerate, don’t step to far down that path.

Dear Mayor:

Thank you for this question.

To everyone thinking to leave the foreskin, think about this:

-How will your already potentially awkward boy feel the first time he showers or changes in a public/school shower and is made fun of for his “abnormal” organ?

-How will your boy feel the first time he has a sexual experience and his partner is shocked by his abnormal looking organ?

-How will your boy feel growing up when all he sees around him is circumcised penises, and his is different?

Many of you have forgotten how delicate young boys sexual perception can be. I have four boys, and alhough I would prefer them to be uncut, I chose circumcision to help them adjust to their sexual identity a little easier. It is already hard enough.

I will admit that I never thought twice about it (the whole “that’s what you did” thing) outside of being such a nervous mommy in the hospital all three times my three boyz were taken away and I could hear them scream down the hall? Poor babies. Poor me! The was all in the early 90′s.
I’m not very articulate and will admit that (another reason I am hopeless with the “talk about politics” thread), but….wasn’t this signed by Jerry Brown due to San Fran passing (or offering? again, I apologize) to ban circumcision in the City?

Babs, yes it is cultural, something that many latino cultures do when they are babies, sometimes within days. India too I believe.

Circumcision is getting rarer these days. Right now, about 80% of newborn boys are intact. That means that having a foreskin is more common among young boys.

It is the boys who have had parts of their penises cut off that are becoming the minority.

In England and the rest of Europe as well as most of the world, being uncut is normal.

The French are uncut. They have the most sex of any culture in the world. It hasn’t hindered or stopped them from having sex.

People are in the U.S. are incredibly gullible to believe that everyone in the U.S. is cut. In reality, right now, millions of young men in their 20s are uncut. Circumcision has gone down since the 1980s. About half of teenage boys are uncut these days. It is really common to see both uncut and cut men in the locker room.

The problem with circumcision is that it is permanent. If you cut it off, there is no choosing to get it back. Many men are uncut these days and they are totally fine with the way they are. However, there are many men who complain and argue about how they hate being uncut. That is why there is such a controversy about circumcision. Some men are very vocal that they were cut and did not have a choice.

If you cut your baby boy and he grows up to hate it, you will have to live with that hate for the rest of your life. If you let a boy decide whether or not to chop off part of his body, the choice is his and you avoid the possibility that he will hate you for the rest of your life.

Europeans don’t cut their babies. The French don’t cut their babies. Do you see all the French women leaving France to come to the U.S. seeking out cut men? No. The French don’t circumcise and they have just about the most sex of any culture in the world. Are the French bad at sex? Are they so grossed out by sex that they can’t have any? Absolutely not.

They are happy with natural uncut male bodies. They don’t need to chop off part of baby boys’ bodies.

With regard to religion, only the Jewish religion and Islam circumcise. Christianity follows the new testament. The New Testament got rid of the Jewish rituals such as circumcision and forbidding the eating of pork. Eating pork is an abomination in the Old Testament/Jewish Bible.

The New Testament of Christianity says that circumcision is a mutilation of the flesh. The Apostle Paul encouraged Christians to stop circumcision and stop the Jewish rituals. The Christian Church early on, stopped circumcision to separate themselves from the Jews.

Circumcision only started back up after World War II only in the U.S. in hospitals. Before WWII, circumcision was rare. Ronald Reagan was uncut as were previous presidents such as Lincoln and George Washington.

Doctors have an incentive to circumcise. They make money off of circumcisions. They will do anything to scare people into circumcising so that they can make money. People in Europe and the rest of world have been uncut for thousands of years.

Today we can cure sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis and gonorrhea with antibiotics. HIV affects less than 1% of the population. Most people with HIV are gay men.

If you contract HIV, the life expectancy is up to 50 years or more. The medications to treat HIV are so good these days that people are living almost symptom free for the rest of their natural lives. HIV is treatable and manageable and people are living long and normal lives. HIV is rare for heterosexual people. HIV is mostly transmitted by receptive anal sex among gay men. Heterosexual transmission of HIV is much rarer.

It is a myth that uncut men have problems with condoms. Condoms are used in Europe and the rest of the world by uncut men and they do just fine.

Whether you are uncut or cut, using a condom is the only way to protect yourself from getting diseases. Believing that circumcision will prevent sexually transmitted diseases is foolish. The HIV rate is 3 times lower in Europe than in the U.S. Europe does not circumcise. Why does Europe have such a low rate of HIV infection? It would seem that circumcision and HIV rates are not related.

How about Africa? What about HIV rates there? In Africa, Muslim countries circumcise. Non-Muslim countries in Africa do not circumcise. What about the HIV rates there? In Muslim countries in Africa, gay men are forbidden or can face the death penalty. That is why the HIV rate is lower in Muslim countries which also happen to circumcise. Muslim countries also circumcise their women so that they don’t commit adultery or go out and have sex with other men. Removal of the clitoris can make sex extremely painful, so there is less extra marital sex among women. Therefore there are lower HIV rates in Muslim African countries.

Ouch….I wish I could say they had to use the big tools when I had it done, but I would be lying.

can bellieve no or brought up the obvious! circumsicion makes yu gay!
aww okay may be it doesn’t. But if it did, yud betcha it would stop in a new York minute.

QUIT mutilating yur sons in the name of religion or cleanliness. those are both ignorant standpoints. If god told yu in his majic book to cut off yur daughters clitoris at birth woud yu blindly do that too??

I respect your views on leaving your son uncut, but do you really think your son or husband would ever admit that they were teased for being uncut? I know firsthand that men and women a like crack jokes about being uncut all the time. I know jokes were/are plentiful with teens as well.

Like it or not, more men are circumcised in the U.S. than not. Until this changes, there will be a stigma attached to being uncut.

One more thing to consider in your numbers is that those numbers don’t include circumcisions thay are done outside of the hospital. Often they are done soon after birth in the doctor office due to insurance coverage. Many insurance companies do not cover circumcisions, but I know firsthand there are ways around it.

I’m not a guy, but if I was I’d like to own decisions regarding my genitals not my doctors or parents. And in a religious aspect, God put that piece of skin their for a purpose and I don’t think it needs removing.

Anyone have a good onion ring recipe?

If my husband had thought it would be more difficult for our son to go through life uncircumcised, he would have said so. But it was not a problem for him growing up and he didn’t see any reason to have our son circumcised. The fact is, most boys are NOT circumcised in our part of the country now. Times have changed, #59.

@think about it
so if your son was born with red hair which some of his classmates might make fun of it……. you would have it cut off and dyed…so he would be more “normal”……”here’s your sign”….

@Babs: I am still young, but my parents got my ears pierced when I was a baby. And up until now, I hardly ever wear earrings anymore, but the hole remains open. I’m not sure if this is for everyone, but a lot of my friend’s ear piercings, who got them done in their later years, seem to close if they take it out for a period of time.

Anon 68 I was referring to ear piercing as babies in Latino and Indian culture. Not circumcision.

It’s no one’s business except for the owner. When he’s 18 years old, he can decide for himself. The procedure is both cruel and uneccessary.

Study Links Circumcision to Personality Trait Disorder
Researchers find circumcised men have higher alexithymia scores than intact men. Alexithymia is the inability to process emotions.

Article | September 22, 2011 – T

The International Journal of Men’s Health has published the first study of its kind to look at the link between the early trauma of circumcision and the personality trait disorder alexithymia. The study, by Dan Bollinger and Robert S. Van Howe, M.D., M.S., FAAP, found that circumcised men are 60% more likely to suffer from alexithymia, the inability to process emotions.

People suffering from alexithymia have difficulty identifying and expressing their emotions. This translates into not being able to empathize with others. Sufferers of severe alexithymia are so removed from their feelings that they view themselves as being robots. If acquired at an early age, such as from infant circumcision, it might limit access to language and impede the socialization process that begins early in life. Moderate to high alexithymia can interfere with personal relationships and hinder psychotherapy. Impulsive behavior is a key symptom of alexithymia, and impulsivity is a precursor to violence.

The idea for the investigation came when the authors noticed that American men (for whom circumcision is likely) had higher alexithymia scores than European men (for whom circumcision is unlikely), and that European men had about the same scores as European and American women.

The study surveyed 300 circumcised and intact men using the standardized Toronto Twenty-Item Alexithymia Scale checklist. Circumcised men had higher scores across the board and a greater proportion of circumcised men had higher scores than intact men.

A common reason fathers give for deciding to circumcise their son is so they will “look alike,” but these authors speculate that perhaps a subconscious motivation is so that they will “feel alike,” in other words as equally distant and emotionally unavailable as themselves. It was beyond this study’s design to test for this, and yet the comments received from circumcised participants speak to a vast psychic wounding, which, if unresolved, might lead to an unconscious desire to repeat the trauma upon others.

The authors recommend that more research be conducted on this topic, but in the meantime, parents considering circumcising their infant son should be informed that circumcision might put their son at risk for alexithymia, including difficulty identifying and expressing his feelings, and for impulsive behavior. Psychologists counseling alexithymic patients should investigate the patient’s childhood and neonatal history for possible traumatic events, including circumcision.

If this pattern of men suffering from circumcision-related trauma holds true for the general populace, this would constitute a significant mental health problem and, considering that three-fourths of the U.S. male population is circumcised, a public health problem, too.

Alexithymia is from ancient Greek meaning, “having no words for feelings.” It was coined by psychotherapist Peter Sifneos in 1973 to describe a state of deficiency in understanding, processing, or describing emotions. Alexithymia tends to be persistent and chronic; it doesn’t diminish with time. This is unlike other trauma-based reactions, like post-traumatic stress disorder, which typically dissipate soon after the trauma.

***

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819…

@think about this: Thank you for your comment about condoms and the uncircumcised. I am no expert and clearly some here are. ;o)

Here’s something to think about. An article was just posted on msn.com that says infants who undergo general anesthesia more than once are more likely to develop learning disabilities. That info would make me less likely to allow my infant son to have an elective procedure such as circumcision. Why have your infant undergo anesthesia any more than is necessary?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44775257/ns/health-childrens_health/

I have to LOL at many of the comments on here. Waiting until the boy is 18 is FAR more risky and painful and generally discouraged.

To those of you that think your boy will not be made fun of think about this:

- How many jokes or terms can you think of for a boy that is uncut? Personally I have heard many in movies and on television. Not to mention amongst friends growing up.

- Have you ever heard of a boy being made fun of because he WAS circumcised?

@67- The color of ones hair is far different and less personal than a penis. We are required by law to cover our genitals in he U.S. for a reason. Apples and Oranges.

@77- In the U.S. anesthesia is not used for circumcisions on newborns.

Good thing we will all always have a choice on this matter. Opinion seems to vary greatly.

The new bill (AB768) doesn’t just keep infant circumcision legal. It actually says
“No city, county, or city and county ordinance, regulation, or administrative action shall prohibit or restrict the practice of male circumcision, or the exercise of a parent’s authority to have a child circumcised.”
That makes it legal for anyone, of any age, with no training, to circumcise anyone, with a boxcutter, so long as
1. one parent has consented
2. the victim is under 18
3. male, and
4. it’s a clean boxcutter.
- and a Bill before the Senate (HR2400) will spread that freedom across the USA.

The MGM Bill was never a ban, only an age-restriction, with an exemption for medically necessary circumcision, so it was taking nothing from doctors.

Yes, it is a personal choice, very personal, and there’s only one person who should have that choice, the one person who’s most directly affected by that choice, when he is old enough to choose for himself. There is no urgency. (The claim that it is safer or less painful for a baby is just hype, like “Buy now! Stocks won’t last!”)

Religion? Cutting part of his genitals off violates HIS religious freedom – for life.

A family decision? As one man said, but more colourfully -
“My family doesn’t [urinate] with my [p enis], my family doesn’t [masturbate] with my [pe nis] and my family doesn’t [have sexual intercourse] with my [pen is], so what business did my family have to go cutting part OFF of my [peni s]?”

Anonymous #39: excellent post, and actually in Australia and New Zealand in the 1950s they used to circumcise as ferociously as the USA, Now the rate is about 12% in Australia, and <1% in New Zealand (except non-Maori Polynesians). The result is that old men are circumcised, yourng are not, and a generation has grown up looking different from their fathers with no problems, and no outbreaks of any of the diseases circumcision was supposed to be good for. New Zealand's HIV rate is one of the lowest in the world.

@48: "more men are circumcised in the U.S. than not. "Until this changes, there will be a stigma attached to being uncut." This HAS changed. The majority is only marginal, and it's a minority in the west.

And which would you rather have to tell him – "Yours looks different because their parents all had part cut off, but we didn't"? Or "Yours looks different because their parents didn't have part cut off, but we did (because we didn't want you to look different)"?

Well my children were born 30 years ago, I was young and my pediatrician recommended it. However, my grandson (9 mos old) is not. I’m absolutely fine with that and believe his parents (both in their 30s) made an informed decision against it.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about.